Double Dragon Dojo Forums

So it seems like it could be said that there were some renegade Double Dragon’s before, during, and after the events of the first Double Dragon. While it could be similar, maybe each character left in different ways. Duke would obviously be at a higher skill level than Jeff, but to me, I would portray both characters as rouges.

Duke: I would treat Duke and Billy’s relationship similar to the way they did with Sasuke and Itachi’s relationship in the Narotu series. Duke in some ways would have been like an older brother to Billy and/or Jimmy (Depending on which storyline you choose.) Maybe before or during the five year war, Duke was either chasing down or investigating the shadow and he was thought to have been murdered. Duke; however, was captured by the Shadow organization and was experimented on. This is when the whole shadow experiment began and this was when Duke was infused with the shadow essence. Or maybe you could say the true Shadow Master pulled an Orochimaru and convinced Duke abandoned the Code of the Dragon for higher gains and it was the reason Duke accepted the Shadow essence. Doing that would tie into parts of the ending of Return of the DD and begin to reveal that there is a higher power within the organization. To give more impact, maybe Duke murdered the Dragon Master or Billy’s parents and Billy was too weak to stop him at the point. It has been a burden to Billy Lee this whole time.

Jeff: I guess in way he could have always been rouge and a spy for the Shadow Warriors. It would explain Duke’s disappearance and how the Shadow’s knew about his partial dissatisfaction with the Dragon way. Maybe during the war, he was the one who gathered intelligence on each Dragon Dojo and that was the reason why a vast majority of the Double Dragon students and warriors were exterminated during the war.

Jimmy Lee: Jeff could also be responsible for Jimmy’s betrayal because it would show that he knew of Jimmy’s feelings for Marion and manipulated him into possibly joining the Shadow warriors. By doing this you could explain the reason for the fight at the end of Double Dragon One. They could amplify the story by saying that if Jimmy kills his brother not only does he have a high ranking position within the Shadow Organization, but he would have Marion’s hand. During the fight, Marion’s plea and the guilt of killing his own brother was just too much for him and he couldn’t do it.

Willy Mackey: Well one thing that needs to be explained is if Jimmy was initially a shadow warrior, why would he fight them? I feel he best way to explain this is that Willy was attempting to gain more control of the city than the shadow would allow him to. He became greedy and attempted to control the city for himself. Once Jeff influenced Jimmy to join the organization, Jimmy’s initiation was to destroy the two biggest threats/annoyances to the Shadow and that was Billy and Willy. By kidnapping Marion, Billy would easily follow Jimmy on a path of destroying the Shadow. As far as the battle with Jeff, Billy could have battled Jeff and Jimmy tells him to spare Jeff’s life even though he was a traitor or Jimmy could have murdered Jeff if he felt Jeff would give away the plan. Once Willy was defeated, in his final breath, he explains to Billy that he was only a small piece to the shadow organization and the true reason why he was attacked. The moment Willy tells Billy that Jimmy is a part of them, Billy gets up and Jimmy nails him with a vicious attack. Afterwards, Jimmy explains his reason and that’s when the final battle of Double Dragon One between Billy and Jimmy commences.

I think ideas like these give Double Dragon a fresh new start, but at the same time it pay homage to the classic games without going too far left field like in Double Dragon Neon. In this way, it also opens the game up for the sequels. Like I said, they are just some quick concepts. It would be awesome to hear some others.

I don’t think I’d want a game that only stops with the story of DD1 – It wouldn’t really give the fans anything new.

I like your idea about Willy revealing the truth about Jimmy – a lot. But I’d rather that be the mid-point in the game, not the end.

So, let’s say you start at the beginning of DD1, with Billy and Jimmy as allies. You play through stages that are large homages to both Arcade and NES DD1. As you go through, the cutscenes reveal that Billy is a straight-up good guy, while Jimmy is getting more and more rogue.

Only after you defeat Willy, is the truth revealed, like you said – Jimmy was manipulating Billy, the whole time. Jimmy masterminded Marian’s kidnapping, to get Billy to take out Willy.

To tell you the truth, I prefer this over any of the more recent explanations, for her kidnapping. Kidnapped over a book? Please.

Anyway, I suggest that Jimmy wasn’t assigned to kill Willy; he did it out of greed. With Willy out of the way, Jimmy can now take his place – and offers Billy the chance to join him. This could lead to multiple endings. The “bad ending” would be right there, if you choose the evil path.

Or, if you tell Jimmy that of course the answer is no, then the Billy vs Jimmy fight takes place.

BUT, the game shouldn’t end there. The question here is, how does Jimmy become a good guy? As I said before, the only current source that has attempted to explain this is the cartoon. I’d rather make it less cartoony.

So, after the Billy vs Jimmy fight, we learn that Willy was not the top-Shadow. We meet his higher-up (I’d go with Raymond, in his NES duds), who condemns Jimmy to the Shadow Experiment, for his betrayal. If Billy won, he would not take his brother’s life, and simply left, before Raymond showed up. If Jimmy won, the fight wore him out, and Raymond’s goons dragged both him and the beaten Billy to the experiment.

Later in the game, we learn that the doppelgangers came from whatever was done to the Double Dragons, in the experiment. Or, if it was just Jimmy, there’s only a Jimmy doppelganger – if good prevails, the ending is easier.

The next mission is the escape from the experiment. It allows Jimmy to see firsthand what the Shadows do to innocent people, and cements his turn away from them. If Billy won the initial fight, then player one controls another escapee, exclusive to Jimmy’s story. He’s a new character, a victim of the Shadows’ experiments, with experimental steroid powers, named Mibo. At the end of the mission, Jimmy escapes, but Mibo is recaptured – although we later meet him again, as Mibobo.

At this point, it turns out that Willy wasn’t dead after all – or, if we’re allowing for magic, then Linda revived him with undhai necromancy, ala the story in the computer versions of DD II. He guns down Marian, leading in to the DD II story. It turns out that “The Revenge” refers to Willy’s revenge, not the Double Dragons’.

As for Jeff, he’s worked for both Willy (in the first two arcade games) and Duke (Super / Return), so I’d guess that in truth, he’s working for somebody higher up than both of them. He’s probably a specialist agent, assigned to various bosses, as needed. I’d like to see him as a recurring rival to the Double Dragons, never a big boss, but always someone who’s capable of everything you are – powerups and all.

Now, while I do agree that I don’t like it stopping at Double Dragon One, I feel it’s a necessity in order to make a complete series. Don’t consider this just another remake. Think about this as a remake/overhaul for the next generation systems. This shouldn’t be a Double Dragon where you just walk through stages, beat up villains, and save the girl. This should be one solid robust story developed around a city in dire trouble. What should make this different from a simple remake is that it is going to be more than just action or fighting. You should be able to interact with new and impactful characters. Not just with villains, but in the community they live in as a whole. By doing this, you are meeting a whole new cast of characters that can make an impact throughout the series. The game shouldn’t be linear Double Dragon One. It should pay homage to part of the old game, but have a solid freshness as well.

The reason why it is essential for Willy to reveal to Jimmy the truth at the end is because it opens the Double Dragon series up to new games in the future. Also, it doesn’t have to following the exact Nintendo or Arcade story line. Remember when Ninja Gaiden can out on XBOX, a couple of things reminded you of the NES games, but it was completely new. Double Dragon needs to fall into that direction. Not every villain needs to come back. Personally, I would like the classic villains to have their own personalities, but in ways, they are sort of leaders or lieutenants in Willy’s factions that you fight during certain quest. Instead or beating up a bunch of Williams and Ropers, they actually have a small status now. You actually beat up a bunch of common thugs or fighters that’s under them. Like I said, it should be a game where you level up and learn different techniques to keep the value going.

Yeah, there should be a solid and strong reason Marion is captured, but like I said, even that could be mixed up a little.

The endings should be thought out a little more if you have the series run together. Let’s say you did a Mass Effect style and had the actions you performed in the first game continue onto the next. The reason why I said the final battle where the actions you chose effect the resistance is because no matter whether your ending is good, medium, or bad, it can translate into the next game. Depending on what happen is the first game, you would notice the small changes, but impactful in the second. If you were to have Billy chose to go evil with Jimmy per say, well it kind of locks up the game because it would be able to flow into the sequel. Also, with new and impactful characters, what’s to say some of the people you meet in the first game won’t be in the next? There could have been someone you helped on one assignment in the first game and depending on the outcome, if you meet them in the second game, they will have a certain attitude towards you.

As far as how Jimmy became good, I feel once the Billy and Jimmy battle concludes, Willy gives Jimmy a warning about the shadow. Regardless of who won out of Billy and Jimmy, it should conclude in something of this fashion. Towards the end of the battle Billy or Jimmy stands above the other. Billy asks Jimmy what is the rest for his betrayal. Jimmy tells him that he feels the way of the Dragon has failed them. Their lives, their family, and everything they loved were destroyed by the world. As Billy attempts to remind them that all they have left is hope and honor, Jimmy tells him that honor and hope is dead. When he steps outside, all he sees is darkness and despair. The only thing that left is power and the wellbeing for your own survival. Marion too attempts to get Jimmy to see through his personal darkness in order to sway his position, but that’s when Jimmy brings up the love she has for Billy and how she chose Billy over him. He attempts to convince her that with the Shadow, he can provide a better, more lavish life for her than Billy could in his current state. Marion scolds him saying that no matter how much money he has, he will never have her. She would rather die than become a slave. Billy attempts to once again show him that no matter what he does, he will never get that true power or happiness. This is when Willy struggles to sit up and laugh at the three of them. He calls them kids and informs Jimmy of the truth. He tells Jimmy that matter what happens, he will always be a dog on a short leash with them and that they will never give him a high ranking position with the Shadow. He tells Jimmy that he lacks that true ruthlessness to be a shadow. It is evidenced by his hesitation to kill his brother. The Shadow feels that this will always be a weakness even if Billy did turn because he will always have an Achilles Heel. In order to be a high ranking warrior in the Shadow he has to give up everything and everyone he loves and he failed to do so. He tells him that he is much weaker than the other Dragon who was able to complete his tasks (This is when you first hear of Duke.). He also tells Jimmy that if he attempts to gain more than they want to give him, they will send an assassin just like they sent Jimmy to kill him. He actually gives credit to his brother for having the freedom to make his own decision and that’s where true power comes from. He suggest if he wants to rule the world, he become his own leader because once he joins the Shadow and realize that he will never be a master, his life will become hell. Billy tells Jimmy that he never thought he would agree with the enemy, but when he looks outside, does he really want to be leader of a slum or does he want to take that small chance to chaining it. Willy warns them that they don’t have any more time to argue, they should take the female officer and go. As Willy grabs his gun, the Dragon’s hesitate, but Willy said his quarrel is no longer with them. He knows his days are numbered, but if he is to die, he wants it to be at the hands of a true Shadow. If he is lucky, he may be able to get a shot off. Once Marion and the Dragon’s disappear, Willy sits up against the wall and his killer appears. The killer could be Duke or the mysterious warrior from Double Dragon 2. Willy laughs as he said the leader of the Shadows must really want him to die if they sent him and then the scene goes black. From there, depending on what you have done shows the condition of the city.

It was a quick idea, but I think it just kind of leaves the door open for a lot of possibilities.

2d or 2.5d style.

We got Contra 4, Contra Hard Corps Uprising, Contra Rebirth...all 2d or 2.5d.

Personally I wish there had been a Nintendo DS sprite based 2d sequel. Sick of all these "new version/remixes" of DD, though the iphone(and from what I saw, the Zeebo) versions were cool.

DD in 3d so far looks like utter crap, but that's my opinion. Retro games turned 3d usually end up sucking(NARC 2005, Golden Axe, etc)

Of course, like wishing for a Strider 3, Ninja Warriors 3, NARC sequel, etc...it'll never happen. DD Advance and DDiphone is about it.

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While I like 2D or 2.5D, I feel like it’s very limited in a way. Sure for XBOX Live, IPHONE, and things like that it’s fine, but it doesn’t really add any new fans or longevity. They are fun as short games, but I don’t think it will increase Double Dragon’s popularity past the hardcore fans. You will get a few new fans, but not as many. Also another problem is that we have been just getting a lot of 2D remakes and DD Neon will be another game that will be added to that list. Eventually, that will get old to the average gamer and that could harm Double Dragon overall.

As far as that 3D Double Dragon, don’t mistake that game for what a true 3D Double Dragon could be. Think of games like Batman Arkham Asylum/City, Jade Empire, Shemue, and Ninja Gaiden. If a company took it’s time, they could make a very good and detailed Double Dragon 3D game.

Regardless, the biggest hurdle we have as Double Dragon fans is they need to stop creating DD1 remakes. 2D or 3D, we need a company that will create a solid series that everyone can love and go past the first one. If it stuck with a 2D format, just making a good solid series of games would build a fan base. Still, I think a very solid and good 3D game is the best way to go. While it may not have the classic game play, if the characters are well thought out and maintain the spirit of their core, I think fans old and new would accept that.

To me DDNeon isn't 2d, but more of the muddy looking decade+ old 3d we keep seeing with these types of releases.

It's a huge disappointment, as Wayforward made the amazingly beautiful(to me) Contra 4 and new Aliens games for Nintendo DS. They couldnt have made a new DD sequel done in that same SNES style?

Let's look at the endless list of 80's classic games that got turned into 3d games...Commando 3/Mercs 2, Final Fight Streetwise, that Golden Axe from a couple years ago, NARC 2005,
Alien Syndrome Wii, the new Centipede, etc. While I didn't play any of these, the reviews and enthusiasm seemed lackluster.

IF companies are mostly counting on the nostalgia factor(and lets face it, retro properties for non Nintendo titles usually just have the older base and have a hard time attracting new fans) to sell a product, why mess with a good formula? There's a brand new Shinobi, and it's gone back to 2d side scrolling.

The only game I can think of that broke the nostalgia only barrier was the Ninja Gaiden xbox series, which continues to receive wide acclaim. So in that respect, it'd have to be completely reinvented...and while *I* did like games like SPIKE!, Demolish Fist, Gekido PS1, The Bouncer, etc...not sure a lot of people are into those.

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While DD Neon isn’t 2D graphics-wise, it is 2D beat em up gameplay. It’s pretty much what Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat has done with their games. While the game is in 3D, it plays like a 2D game.
Like you, I am sad about how Wayward created this game and I really wish they would have done it in a Super NES style. It’s not the 2.5D style that disappoints me, it’s the feel of the game and the direction I see them taking the game. I would have preferred a 2D or 3D graphics look with 2D gameplay that had more of a modern SNES look. To me, that would make for a good seller.
As far as classic games turning in to 3D games, this all depends on a lot of factors. Who developed it, their time limit, and their concept for that game. I feel the game you mentioned was just sloppily done. They had a ton of flaws and I think they went too far out of the box concept-wise.
One thing about these companies is that they could have been counting on cheap sales because of nostalgia. They knew the hardcore fans would buy them and that’s just dirty of them. As far as bringing back a successful formula that made it famous over the years. I agree and disagree but only in good ways. If they were to remake (A good remake of course.) a Double Dragon that amplified on the Return of the Double Dragon or DD Advanced formula with great graphics and great design, I would buy it every time. Still, I wonder how it would do on major platforms and if it would get as much anticipation and hype. In ways I feel it could do well if it got a lot of press I guess, but I guess it could go both ways. I just see that most elite game are done in 3D with a great concept and story.

Now you keep referring to the nostalgia barrier as a negative which I understand. But let’s look at good games that could have passed for Double Dragon-like gameplay such as Shenmue, The Bouncer, Jade Empire, The Warriors (Don’t forget that this game actually paid homage to Double Dragon. In a way, this game showed how Double Dragon could be a great 2D or 3D game if done right .), Ninja Gaiden, and the new Batman series showed more or less that an action/rpg/beat em up can be successful in 3D. Sure these were brand new concepts, but at the same time, the core game play of these games could make Double Dragon successful on major platforms. There is just so much you could do and create if you built a nice landscape, smooth and solid gameplay, and a well thought out story.

Let’s remember that the reason Double Dragon is popular and will always be considered one of the all-time greats is because it had revolutionary gameplay for its time. I feel after playing some of these games that they are great (The ones I mentioned), but I feel there is more that can be done if done well.

There is really no right or wrong answer because in the end it all depends on who develops it and how much time, care, and innovation they took into creating the game. 2D or 3D, I just hope the game is a success.

While I’m not a fan of how DD Neon looks so far, I’m still rooting for it in a way because it is Double Dragon and I want to see people flock to it.

On a personal note, I have gotten friends who never played Double Dragon to play the classic games which they love and they actually are good to buy DD Neon. Hopefully, Neon doesn't disappoint because I would love for the new fans to stay fans of the series.

Well I am grateful for DDi. Probably the last time we'll get a new 2d DD experience. I just personally feel the series went off the rails with DD3 and didn't really recover.
In a way I'm strangely right with Angry Video Game Nerd in his series overview. I hated DD3 on the NES, though consider it the only real DD3. I greatly loved Neo Geo Double Dragon, my only complain is that I wish it was a Neo Geo side scroller. Everything since has been a "remix/remake" of DD1. Hell even Altered Beast got a 2d sequel(albeit not a very good one)

Sometimes retro sequels hit it out of the park. Strider 2, Hard Corps Uprising, Bionic Commando Rearmed. But it just seems like other than Shinobi PS2 2002, and Ninja Gaiden series it just doesnt seem to be the case(though I did kind of like Outrun 2)

Yeah Arkham Asylum and a few other "3d brawlers" have made a good impact. I just have never seen a successful game that was specifically billed as a "beat em up" in the classic sense. Though I'm a sucker for em...I kind of liked the Dynamite Deka/Die Hard series, and even the beat em up side quests on the Tekken home releases.

What doesnt make sense is why they haven't done a BlazeBlu styled DD game(or any other well known 80s/early 90s game) While Ive given up hope of the DD1/DD2 style ever being used again, a lot of beautiful HD pixel work is still out there. Anyways, I could possibly see a new take on Double Dragon, but it'd have to be a complete overhaul and done with a really unique style.

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To be honest, I liked Double Dragon 3 on the NES. It wasn’t as good as two, but it was still enjoyable. It seemed that in DD3 they did take a step back. DD2 was so robust and amazing that when 3 came out, it was a disappointment to a lot of people. And I too love the Neo Geo version. I always wondered what it could have been if they made it a side scroller.

As far as some of the beat ups I mentioned, I think of it as an evolution. The day of just a “classic beat em up” as you said is over because systems have evolved. Now, it seems people want to see various elements on top of its action. A complex formula I guess. A lot of those game I mentioned have beat em up commands such as attack, counter, and block which is pretty much required in a new game since now gaming systems are strong enough to provide multiple enemies at once that preform different actions. What Double Dragon has to do is add elements that make it different. Like a batman with the gadgets, like a Jade Empire with magic and dialogue, or like Shenmue with sequences scenes, it has to come up with a new and unique element that sets it apart from the those games.
As far as Die Hard and the Tekken side scrollers, I like them as well.

Also like you said, a new “true” Double Dragon needs a unique and complete overhaul for the series. It doesn’t need to go verbatim by the Nintendo or Arcade series. You want it to pay homage of course for the classic gamers like us by adding a couple of characters, semi-plots, or mechanics to it, but at the same time you want it to be completely new and deep as well. There are tons of things you can do to make a new Double Dragon unique game play wise, story wise, and character wise. I had a few ideas for a new system and features and hopefully we could all put in our inputs soon.

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