Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

The place for all the fan-made Double Dragon games.

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Eddie MountainGoat
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Re: Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

Post by Eddie MountainGoat »

JimmyLee wrote:I have contacted them first.

As they have released the latest DD game I heard of, I have asked if they bought the franchise, and asked if they could give me permission to distribute my fangame for free.

Brizo called me a PIRATE and told me to stop developing and distributing the game.

A couple of years before, I have e-mailed Atlus many times to ask, but they never answered me.

More serious gaming companies like Sega officially don't mind about fangames. And there are a lot of Sonic fangames around. Capcom actually endorses fangames.


I happen to have a law degree, so I'd like to volunteer my opinion. I'll try not to be too dry or boring.

IMPORTANT: DO NOT take this as actionable, legal advice, just an educated, but untested opinion. I don't actually practice law (boring), and I stayed away from anything concerning intellectual property (more boring). Moreover, as you know, different countries have different laws, so things might be slightly different, for Brizo.

Still with me? Here we go:

Piracy generally requires that you make money, or at least receive some benefit or consideration. So, distributing it for free pretty much precluded you from being a pirate.

With intellectual piracy, there is an issue with using someone else's property or work, without their permission. So, if you had distributed the official Double Dragon game online, that could present a problem. But you didn't.

Or, if you had marketed DDF as an official Double Dragon product, again that could present a problem. But as far as I'm aware, the game made it clear that it was a fan-creation, so that's not an issue. Even less so, if none of its content was illegally obtained. Since you created the engine yourself, DDF still seems to be in the clear.

There might be some issue with sprites taken from other games, though. But since this is a wide internet practice, all over MUGEN and BOR, I can't see it being actionable, so long as you keep it clear that DDF is a fan-creation, and make no money (or benefit or consideration).

Free fan-creations which are openly not official are generally not a problem. If I wanted to, say, make a Batman fancomic, I could put it in the web, for anyone to see. So long as I charge nothing, and make it clear that it's not "real", DC couldn't do anything about it. Look at all the fanfilms on youtube.

HOWEVER, since you asked Brizo for permission and got denied, it might be unwise to defy them. You acknowledged them as the rightful owners, and that could lead to an argument that any persistance was done so with the knowledge that you were infringing on their intellectual property rights to Double Dragon.

On the other hand, I would argue that, since it's only a fan game, and importantly, it's free, you still wouldn't be in any violation of anything. DON'T test my theory, but that's how I see it.

To me, the biggest issue is the sprites. Not the usage of the name "Double Dragon", or any of the characters.

Bottom line:
1. DDF is NOT software piracy.
2. It MIGHT still be a theft of intellectual property, but I don't think so.
3. Brizo are $#!+ers. In fact, having re-read the message you first received, I get the impression that they thought you were trying to market a commercial Double Dragon game (again, maybe a problem in translation). This explains the abruptness. If some programming company had created a Double Dragon game for sale, and only then asked the owners, well, they SHOULD have asked BEFORE.

Afterthought: My guess is that Atlus didn't have a problem with a fan creation, but didn't want to acknowledge it either, because it's not an official creation. So, they never sent you a "Yes", but they never sent you a "No", either.
JimmyLee
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Re: Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

Post by JimmyLee »

Thank you for yor comment, Eddie.

My current approach is: I'm working on the engine only, wich was entirely created by me and has absolutely nothing to do with the Double Dragon copyright.

If anyone else wants to step up and recreate the Double Dragon Forever "mod" for my engine, go for it. It would be pretty easy, actually. :)

Ps: But please don't mention me on this "mod".
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DojoMaster
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Re: Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

Post by DojoMaster »

I just wanted everyone to know that as a result of this email exchange, I'm going to be removing the Fan Games section from the website. It's currently an empty page, but I had plans to hopefully fill out the section like our official games page. Unfortunately, the way the DD license is being handled, I think it's too risky to both the Dojo and to the makers of DD fan games if I put them in the spotlight like that. I don't want to cause fan games left and right to get shut down. Also, I was hoping that some people would be willing to come forward and provide reviews of the different fan games out there, but that never really happened.

So, I'll be working on deleting the links throughout the website. I thought I'd just let everyone know why they'll be gone.
Steve Halfpenny
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Re: Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

Post by Steve Halfpenny »

I agree.

Discussing legal issues about whether or not you can make a fan game using the DD name or not is not in the spirit of this forum anyway.

Personally I'd just make the damn thing if that's what you wanna do. The problem clearly lies in uploading it and sharing it with the world. Shame.
JimmyLee
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Re: Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

Post by JimmyLee »

I support your decision to close the still non-existant fangame section.
According to Brizo, everyone who develops a fangame is a pirate, so anyone who supports a fangame is probably a pirate too.
When I closed Double Dragon Forever, I thought it would cause a war. I thought a bunch of furious people would e-mail Brizo, make a petition...
Sadly nothing happenned.
There are just not many DD fans anymore.
Brizo must have paid a very low price for the franchise.
Don't know about you, but I'm sick of remakes. It seems after decades without a decent sequel, people just gave up.
I think Double Dragon is dying.
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DojoMaster
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Re: Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

Post by DojoMaster »

Most people have forgotten about the series because of the lack of installments. Others simply don't know what Double Dragon is. I don't think Double Dragon Advance did anything to reinvigorate the series' previous popularity, so until someone steps up to the plate and tries to make a brand new game, we'll pretty much be left with the same old games.
Steve Halfpenny
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Re: Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

Post by Steve Halfpenny »

DojoMaster wrote:Most people have forgotten about the series because of the lack of installments. Others simply don't know what Double Dragon is. I don't think Double Dragon Advance did anything to reinvigorate the series' previous popularity, so until someone steps up to the plate and tries to make a brand new game, we'll pretty much be left with the same old games.


Interestingly, despite the interest in "retro" over the past ten years or so in the UK (Retro Gamer magazine, high street shops full of Pac-Man, Space Invaders and Nintendo T-shirts to name but a few, hell, even commercials advertising coin-ops), Double Dragon Advance doesn't appear to have ever been released. People of a certain age do remember the game very much so.

I predict they will be a more mainstream DD game within the next five years. Sadly I'd imagine it'll be either a rereleased update or a mobile phone waste of time rather than a full price new effort.
JimmyLee
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Re: Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

Post by JimmyLee »

Or maybe another cheap Street Fighter clone with the name Double Dragon on it. Argh!
richieisnow
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Re: Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

Post by richieisnow »

I am very thankful and appreciative for those who take the time to make fan games, especially DDF.

Having done 2 years of legal studies here in Australia, and having spoken to my father (who is a practicing contract lawyer) I put it to you that the chances of any legal action coming out of a fan game for DD is NEXT TO NONE.

I would urge you not to be intimidated by such as substanceless threat from the copyright holder.

FACT: People DO NOT take legal action (except in rare circumstances) unless there is money involved

Legal action is only practical if:

1. You have money (to pay them)
2. They have money (to sue you)
3. Double Dragon as a brand is worth money
and most importantly
4. Your action has cost them money (ie taken profits from their sales, unlikely as its its a fangame on a totally different platform)
5. You have made money from their property

I think we can pretty well state that none of these apply.

Not to mention that they are on the other side of the world and it would be nigh-on IMPOSSIBLE for them to practically take any action against you.

Come on guys - the amount of serious conversation this has generated is a bit silly given the emptiness of such a threat.
I'd hate to see the love stop because of such an unnecessary fear.

Come on Cleber - keep up the good work!

P.S - whats the second best DD fangame out there, anyone?
JimmyLee
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Re: Double Dragon Forever is over (bad news)

Post by JimmyLee »

As I've said, I'm still working on the engine, it's available for download in my page.

Put the engine and the data files together and you have Double Dragon Forever.

The engine is totally made by me, and has nothing to do with the "Double Dragon" copyright anymore.

I will not host the data files, as they contain copyrighted material, making them illegal to distribute.

The copyright owner told me not to distribute, I will respect it.
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