Double Dragon Dojo Forums

Hey guys. I have been a huge fan of Double Dragon since I was a kid. It's is my all time favorite Double Dragon game. While I'm happy to see some fan games such as DD Forever and remakes such as the upcoming DD Neon, I always wondered what Double Dragon fans would like to see in a new Double Dragon game if they created one for 360 or PS3 (Not just in Live arcade.).

- Would you prefer more on the side of pure Martial Arts like Shenmue or would you like some magic mixed with a few martial art styles like in like Jade Empire?
- Would you prefer a mixture of of both action and challenges like Parts of DD2 on NES of would you like a straight beat em up?
- Would you prefer 2D for nostalgia purposes or do you want a full 3D game (That's done correctly of course.)?
- Should they do a true remake from scratch to go along with the new series or should they continue from Super DD/Return of the DD?
- As far as iconic characters like Abobo, do they remake them or should they create brand new characters and challenges for the DD?
- What should be the background and feel of the new game? Dark as Arkham Asylum or a little lighter like Shenmue?

While I do enjoy playing any Double Dragon game that comes out, I would love to see a new and more updated series of Double Dragon games.

Personally I'd love to be involved with another Double Dragon games design.

Double Dragon Neon look's to me as it's going to be a missed opportunity to bring the franchise back to the masses. There looks to be some good idea's in there but from what I've just seen on the latest fooatge, it's not the game that I was hoping for.

Firstly, I'm a big fan of the arcade original which I felt was one of the more realistic scrolling beat em up's from the late 80's. I liked the fact that the player didn't pick up food from the floor to gain energy. I loved the physics, I loved the interactive backgrounds, I thought that the range of moves (for it's time) were great, the music was superb and as were the sound effects. I loved the way that the weapons could be taken nearly all the way through the game if you knew how to. Also, who can forget the way that each level scrolled onto the next.

I know that most of you American guy's probably played the NES version first and although that is a great game, for me nothing so far has been better than the arcade original.

So for an official Double Dragon game, I would like to see all of the things that I have just mentioned. I can handle 3D in the way that Neon does it, but I want to see the entire game set in the city slums with decent level design that involves interactive backgrounds. I don't want to collect energy/food from the floor or garbage cans. I would want the game to feel familar to the original but at the same time give it a host of new moves, with great new level designs.

I helped design many of Double Dragon Forever's levels, I think that the one I was most proud of was the second level. So more stuff like that maybe?

Swainy: I have to agree with you on some points. While I was hoping that Double Dragon Neon would attract people to Double Dragon, I don’t think it will attract too many fans outside of the people who grew up with it. I just don’t know if it was a good time to use a retro 80’s style when you are trying to attract a new generation. I’m not saying that the 80’s wasn’t a great era, but at the same time, I don’t know if this will push it in a new direction. I think the game will be okay, but I don’t know if it will be amazing. I hope I am wrong.

I also agree with you on the arcade. It was semi-realistic and you pretty much had to battle your way through without a recharging element such as food as you mentioned, each level flowed into each other smoothly as well. As far as music, I think DD2 on the NES had the best music out of all the games.

As far as the NES vs. Arcade version. I played both when I was a kid starting with the arcade first actually. I loved the elements of both games. I loved the variety of martial arts moves you could display on the arcade, but I also enjoyed the various platform challenges of the NES because it brought depth to the beat em up.

As far as DD Forever, I loved that game and it brought back a lot of memories.

As far as my ideal version of a new Double Dragon game for the new generation, I feel it needs the following.

-For the setting, because the game is set a few years after the nuclear war and due to drug lords and rival gangs taking over, it needs to have a kind of darker setting in most areas similar to Batman Arkham City or as you mentioned the city slums. Most of the game should take place in a slum- like setting, but for bigger villains, their settings can look a little nicer because their wealth. Final Fantasy VII actually pulled the setting off well when it came to going from the slums in the beginning and then when you went after Shinra, some of the areas got nicer due to the mass wealth of the corrupted leaders. At the same time, if they do a new series, it needs to stay a majority slums. Willy’s base should be a high rise in the slums similar to the movie The Raid Redemption or they could keep it classic and have a base hidden deep within the woods. I point this out because Willy should be a small piece and a starting point to finding out about the shadow organization. In later games, they should create bigger and more powerful villains in the organization that Billy and Jimmy must take down.

-Building onto the environment, if the game became more open world I would like to see areas with a lot of character interaction from the people who live in the slums. Nowadays, the story is just as important as the game play and you can build a story out of Double Dragon. Seeing Billy and Jimmy interacting with different characters in the slums will add a lot of appeal. Those characters could set up various mission for the Dragons and slowly build onto the story as a whole. Also, I would like to see the villains with a lot of character and depth as well. Some turn chicken after seeing the Dragons lay out a bunch of their friends in front of their eyes. Others give you that crazy last ditched attack knowing that they are about to get knocked out. No I don’t want to it be like GTA where you can just mindlessly attack people in an open world game, rather, I would prefer for it to slowly open up so each area becomes more impactful. Once you complete all tasks, more areas become available. Also, it only adds to the list of memorable characters.

-As far as gameplay, after playing games such as Batman Arkham Asylum/City, Jade Empire, Shenmue, and True Crimes/Sleeping Dogs (When it comes out), I feel if done correctly a full 3D (Or a nice unique cell shading like Jet Grind Radio) game can be ideal for a new Double Dragon. Don’t let that DD Wander of the Dragon game scare you away from the idea (I only say this because of all the negative reviews I have read), if you make a sophisticated system, it can work and work well. I will always love the 2D beat em up games of DD, but with that you can only go so far as far as potential go. Trust me they are fun, but you can only get so much depth out of them.

-Also with the game play, I kind of want a combination of old mixed with new. I liked where Super/Return Double Dragon was going with depth. I feel the new game should have punch, kick, block, counter, crouch, and jump only revolved more in a 3D format. I think throughout the game, they should gain new techniques or even a new fighting style like in Jade Empire. Also, at some point like in DD3, you could gain a few new characters to help in your cause. This really depends on the length of the game. If the game is longer than 10 hours, then this would be awesome. The environment should also be another element added to the game. You’re fighting a lot of gangs and criminals and if you want to keep that faced-paced, exciting feel to it you have to add everything you can for multiple attackers. I would love to see Billy repeatedly bash someone’s head against a tile wall as he falls to the ground or kick someone through a door. To add onto it, if some of the bottom edge of the door is still intact, they could use that piece to slam a weakened enemy’s throat on it to kill them (I saw it in a martial arts movie once. I felt that was an amazing survival tactic.). The environment could definitely add an aspect to their challenge and survival. I would also love to see the booby traps from some of the older games return to add even more challenge to the game. Moving platforms, trap doors, and things like this adds so much to the game.

-As far as the health system, instead of doing like Streets of Rage of Final Fight where you pick up food to recharge, I would love to see a new element of health similar to the cross over games such as Marvel vs. Capcom. I call this a life and stamina bar. The life bar is a long bar where small solid chunks fall off after each major attack. Your stamina bar is more of a liquid-like meter that loses a little more after each attack. After each battle; depending your character’s stamina, the bar recharges to the end of the life bar. As you get attacked more, the life bar breaks off more making it shorter. Once it completely breaks, you’re dead. The stamina section is different. If your stamina is depleted, your character is only knocked out and another player can save you, or after a few seconds, you can struggle to recover and get up, crawl away, or perform a desperate attack to buy time. However, if an enemy stands over your fallen player when he is knocked out, he can deliver a fatal blow and kill you (Only sub-bosses or bosses can kill you if you are knocked out). I feel this way is good and realistic because it shows how the Dragons struggle to regain their strength after a long battle. The life meter doesn’t fully recharge until the mission is over.

-As far as character development, I would love to see our iconic characters such as Billy, Jimmy, Marion, Abobo, etc. return, but with slightly different changes. As far as Marion, the damsel in distress days are long gone so I would like to see her portrayed in a policeman’s role like she was starting to do in Super DD and the cartoon. Obviously, because of the setting of the game, the cops are either overran, killed or paid off. Marion is probably one of the few good ones remaining. This opens up a lot of windows for her. Maybe she becomes a playable character as well. Maybe she can be kidnapped later in the story. As far as her relationship with Billy, they could either stick with the classic story where they were already together or maybe in one of the missions, the Double Dragons actually save her (Making her playable) and throughout the game her relationship with Billy builds. Like I said, it adds variety. And if they wanted to go with a Mass Effect/Heavy Rain route with a deeper romance, that would be a nice edition as well. Willy should be a cruel and ruthless Kingpin. You can find scenes where he ruthless kills someone for attempting to screw him over as a display of fearful dominance. Willy also sends his warriors to kidnap people from the slums in order to do various cruel acts or experiments. Abobo could be a leading lieutenant with the black warriors who control most of the illegal weapon shipments that you have to take down. As far as Billy and Jimmy, Billy could be more straight edge where as Jimmy is more unorthodox.

-Maybe as a bonus, throughout the game you can unlock all of the old Double Dragon games and both the NES and Arcade versions. I think a lot of old and new fans would enjoy it.

Like I said, Double Dragon is my all-time favorite game and I hope that one day we will see a major game come out on the new generation systems. In the meantime, I will continue to play the old games, buy any new game that comes out like Double Dragon Neon (It's Double Dragon. I want it to be better, but I will take what i can get.), and play any fan made games that I can download such as Double Dragon Forever. Still, I would love to hear everyone’s idea on what would make a great new Double Dragon game.

You’ve really put some thought into this, and I like what you have to say.

The unlocking of all the original classic games would certainly be cool. I'd like it if it were done kinda like Day of the Tentacle allowed you to turn on Weird Ed's computer, and play Maniac Mansion. So, you walk into an arcade, and all the machines are totally busted because it's post-apocalyptic chaos, but surprise surprise, there's a Double Dragon coin-op (or DD II or 3), which looks EXACTLY like the original ones did, and you can push the X button and play the game.

For me, the plot of video games has always been a big part of the experience, and I'd like a DD game that incorporates all previous incarnations of the story.

I'd like it to primarily be based around DD 1 and 2, and maybe Super. Some of the others would have to be a little more loose:

DD3: I've made it clear, time and again, that I don't like DD3's globe-trotting quest for magic rocks. But there could be tonge-in-cheek references to it ("Billy, I am not going into a pyramid, to fight some ancient queen!"). Or, the "sacred stones" could valuable mission-based-artifacts, that the gang bosses want (and maybe each one brings with it a special powerup or ability).

DD3 also introduced Hiruko, who is a great character for plot development, because she both helps you and betrays you. And, Jim's Neo Shadows could be a rival faction, within Willy's Shadow Warriors. Are Willy and Jim vying for power? Are they completely different gangs, fighting each other? Do they ally themselves, against the Double Dragons? Do you sometimes work for one of them, to hinder the other?

Brett Aldo could be an NPC student of the Dragons', who gets murdered, as the game progresses (and yes, it would comfort me if this game would claify that that's his full name, so that both names are accurate).

DDV and the cartoon: Well, mystical swords may or may not be incorporated into this game, depending on whether or not magic itself is in the game, like you said. For me personally, it doesn't feel right, in Double Dragon (although the Dopplegangers in DD II then stick out, like a sore thumb). But the cartoon could provide the inspiration for many side missions:

- Destroy the Oblivion and RPM drug labs;
- Recover the Eye of the Dragon;
- Liberate the Fusion Plant from the bad guys;
- Rescue an innocent from Radica prison, then take out the corrupt cop who sent him there;

New enemies could also be inspired, by their cartoon counterparts:
- Sickle: A punk with a bright red mohawk, who weilds either his weapons from the cartoon, or actual sickles.
- Icepick: An albino with a topknot, dressed all in white, who weilds either his cutlass from the cartoon, or an actual icepick.

And, are the cartoon Shadows on Willy's side, or another rival faction?

DD NG and the movie: The Dragon Medallions, like the sacred stones, could be mission-based-artifacts, and/or powerups. Or, like the Cartoon swords, they could bring the magic that they do in the movie/game (hope not).

The "steroid-chair" could be a big plot-factor, and explain (FINALLY) just why the hell Mibobo is green (and other mutants too?).

Koga Shuko could be another rival Shadow-gang leader. But interestingly, in DD NG, Duke worked for Shuko. So is Duke biding his time, waiting to take over, ala Super DD? Does he manipulate the Double Dragons, into assassinating Shuko, for him?

The movie also introduced the ideas of the Chief of Police being Marian's father, Marian also having a little brother (maybe he might need to be rescued?), and the existance of gangs who are actually good guys (the Power Core) - maybe some missions could involve working for them?

I'd also find it funny, if there was a character named Scott or Wolf, who takes one hit to go down.

Interestingly, Abobo has been shown working for most of the above gang leaders (Willy, the cartoon Shadow Master, and Shuko), while Burnov worked for two of them (Willy and Shuko). So are they traitorous personalities, changing loyalty as it suits them?

The comic: Again, the statue could be an artifact, or grant magical power.

I have a few more ideas, but I'll wait and see if anybody has any other opinions, first.

Yeah, I think it would be an awesome part of the game to add the retro games. I mean, it seems like your trying to clean up the slums or make it a little better so things start to build up. It still has a slum look, but a couple of nice things make it look like small changes are happening. The arcades can be a sign of that.
Like you I agree with the game taking some parts of DD1 and DD2 for the first game.

I think in a later game (The sequel to the new DD), they should try to chase and intercept Duke (Or the Mysterious Warrior) in an around the world race to try and stop him from reaching some amazing power. Maybe the Rosetta Stones unlock it or something of that nature. I guess in a way, it kind of merges DD3 with Super DD. I think doing that shows growth in the Shadow organization way beyond Willy. Hiruko could be like a double agent for the shadow and the evil Queen could be the protector of the secret power whether it’s armor or some powerful essence. It’s kind of like Fatal Fury the motion picture in a way.

I think Bret Aldo could be used in all sorts of ways. Let’s say they stuck to the NES story line where Jimmy was initially a part of the Shadow Warriors. Instead of starting off with Billy and Jimmy, they could start off with Billy and Bret. At some point in the story Jimmy eventually learns the truth and during that phase Willy could actually kill Bret causing Billy Lee a huge loss. I know he’s not dying in Double Dragon 3, but this death does have a huge effect. Maybe when Jimmy finds out the truth and in an attempt to double cross Jimmy, Willy shoots at him and Bret uses himself as a human shield. From there, Willy disappears (While sending a few shadow warriors as he departs.) and Bret gives both of the Double Dragon’s his final words before he dies. Every game needs that big climatic death scene. With this, is also amplifies Jimmy’s character. Also, this should vary Jimmy a little bit from Billy move wise. This could also show why Jimmy’s attitude is so different from Billy’s.

I like what you did as far as taking the concepts of the cartoon and making some missions out of them.

Another good thing you brought up were some of the characters from the cartoon. In all honesty, the cartoon suffered from that cheesy 80’s/early 90’s cliché of the good guys always winning; however, if you look deeper, some of those characters could actually be revamped into something amazing such as Icepick and Sickle.
As far as magic, this is where I’m torn. If they do magic, I would prefer a system like Jade Empire where you have a magic and weapon meter. The magic meter runs out when you perform a special attack. You can earn a larger meter as you level up and depending on the magic will depend on its damage and how much of the meter it uses. The weapon bar is a timed bar. Once you active a special weapon, the weapon bar starts to drain. Once it hits zero, the weapon disappears. It adds another element to the game, but I’m torn about it.

Also, I’m down with the steroid chair and other experiments in the game. Like I said, Wily is a crime Lord, maybe he kidnaps a few civilians in the slums to experiment on and one could turn out to be Mibobo.

As far as Duke and Shuko, I say wait until later in the series to use them. Since the concepts are there, they could be higher characters within the Shadow organization. Duke, the Mysterious Warrior, and/or Shuko could make a cameo appearance via cut scenes, but I wouldn’t go beyond that for the first game.
I like the idea of Marion’s father being chief of police as far as having a huge impact on Marion. If Willy was to publically execute him and her little brother and she was powerless to do nothing, I think that would add a new element to her character. Either that or if Marion is kidnapped, there is a mission where you control her, her father, and a couple of people from the power core and they sacrifice themselves to help Marion and her little brother (If he is a very young child)escape. As far as the Power Core themselves; they could basically be the eye of the slums that notify the Double Dragons of various activities which leads to missions. They shouldn’t help them fight though (At least not yet.). If they wanted to amplify the power core, (which should be a small resistance) they could go the Mass Effect route and have a gauge for the final battle. The more side missions and special objectives you complete, the better your ending becomes after the final battle. Basically, they could have multiple endings. If you didn’t complete any side missions, after Billy and Jimmy defeat Willy, the slums is somewhat in shambles and a lot of lives were lost. If you did over half the mission, you get a better ending were lives were lost, but they can slowly rebuild. If you did over 75%, then the Power Core smartly took out the basic shadow warriors with few lives lost and the city could finally began to recover at a faster pace. It could give you extra incentive to do everything if they went with a multiple ending route.

Scott or Wolf could add a slight comedic value. Maybe they are snitches who sell out for a little bit of money. Maybe they just so happen to show up when you defeated a large group of Shadow Warriors and they constantly either run away or wet themselves in fear of being beaten up.

As far as Abobo and Burnov working for multiple bosses. Maybe one could be used as a monitor of events to one of the higher members of the Shadow organization (Abobo), while the other one could easily be bought in the wake of betraying someone within the organization (Burnov).

One thing I would like to talk about is if they wanted it to be a four player game, who would they make as an additional character? I think Billy, Jimmy/Bret (If going by a Nintendo storyline), and Marion should be the three key players, but what about a fourth from the beginning. In a lot of fan made games and even with DD3, you see a few characters like Sato that tie into the story. Personally, I would love to see a character inspired by Jim Kelly (The Black Belt Jones version, not the Enter the Dragon version since they already created Williams) or Taimak (From Barry Gordy’s The Last Dragon). Also, another female couldn’t hurt either. With a revamped story, these characters could be added. If it did remain a classic two player format, they could actually be warriors that you unlock throughout the game after you complete a special mission. I did enjoy playing as a new character (Chin and Ranzou) in Double Dragon 3; I feel they should add that to a new game as well.

I like your idea of Brett being used for the climactic death scene. But I’m not sure the Billy/Brett thing would work. Double Dragon has to be – has always been – Billy and Jimmy. That’s why I suggested Brett for an NPC. Maybe he could be unlockable, or usable in side-missions, but in Story Mode, he can’t be Player 2.

Still, the idea of following the NES / cartoon idea that Jimmy was originally a Shadow Warrior is an interesting one. Perhaps it could play like the end of Revenge of the Sith, where you’re using Obi-Wan and Anakin in parallel storylines – one heroic, one evil. As Jimmy, you cause crime for the Shadow Warriors (this would also be a good way to get to know their personalities). As Billy, you defend the innocent. If this was the case, each one would need a second player, for backup. I guess Brett could be Billy’s then, but who would be Jimmy’s? Maybe Sonny?

Alternatively, it could be the other way around. If you read the Famicom DD III manga, Jimmy seems to have a deep friendship with Aldo (or at least deeper than Billy). So, Sonny is Billy’s P2, and Brett is Jimmy’s. Then, Jimmy learns the truth, or is betrayed, like the cartoon (actually, the cartoon is the only source that has attempted to explain why Jimmy switched sides). This would actually be a perfect moment for Brett to sacrifice himself, like you suggested.

While new characters are always interesting if done right, I feel that a series like Double Dragon needs to incorporate the old ones, first.

So, I’d have Billy and Jimmy as the central characters.
As I suggested, Sonny and Brett could be the backup (seriously, why didn’t Nintendo use Sonny as the guy who gets shot, at the beginning?).
For big, power guys, you have Roney, Sunny and Jonny.
Masao, Nunio and Akira should use a style that incorporates Karate and Judo (given that they were originally based on Mas Oyama, and Masahiko Kimura).

Marian could use the style she does, in DD NG. And what about the other Neo Geo characters? Well, Eddie and a man mentioned in Rebecca’s bio (“Eric”) are Shuko’s men. And the others? Personally, I don’t like them. But most have a beef with Shuko – I smell side-missions. And Amon could be Ranzou’s backup.

Speaking of which, Ranzou and Seimei should be unlocked after defeating them, ala NES DD III. Seimei seriously needs a redesign, though. Of all the character designs, in every single DD product, I’ve always felt that his is the worst. Keep him as Taimei’s older, fatter brother (and what about Chinmei?), but maybe dress him more like the Chen brothers, in Super DD.

And what about the cartoon Dragon Warriors? I don’t think that most of them would translate well, except maybe Kona. Having a sumo on your side would be way better than Seimei.

The idea of playing both sides seems like a great one. Since Jimmy has a deep friendship with Bret, you could have Bret and Jimmy on one side (The Shadow) and Billy and Blaster on the other. Why Blaster?

Well if you look at his story from the cartoon, he’s basically retired from the military and moved into a new neighborhood only to see it was infested with crime. While this is okay, I feel his story should be revamped a little. Maybe after the nuclear war, he returned only to find his hometown in this situation. He would have a solid story with Billy as far as motive because he wants to change things. It can also explain why he knows a martial art because of his military background as well. I just wouldn’t call him Blaster or his name from the cartoon which was Neil McGretty I think. It just doesn’t sound like a good name to me. And he doesn’t need to be a retired vet, he could have been a served a term in the military if you want him at a younger age.

For all of the other characters, I would kind of spread them out throughout the series. I mean four to six characters may be ideal. Maybe eight characters if the game was a four player game. But for a two or three player game, six sounds perfect because it gives each player two or three characters a piece.

I guess ideally the six names are:

Dragon: Billy Lee, Marion, Blaster (Concept loosely based off his story.)
Shadow: Jimmy Lee, Bret, Sonny

As far as Jimmy’s Shadow missions, I’m guessing that they will battle enemies such as police, rival gangs, and Special Forces. I guess this shows how the Shadows solidify their powers in a way.

Marion’s style could be similar to her NG version, but that depends on the realism of the game. As far as the other character’s in the Neo Geo game. I would prefer they be spread out of left out of the game. Like you said, they were okay concepts, but they can be left out.

As far as Chin and Ranzou, they should definitely be in a later game. I think because of their history, saving them for later would be more ideal. Chin does need to be revamped though.

As far as the Dragon Warriors from the cartoon; those characters where really bad. Blaster was the only one I could think of that can be worked around story-wise. Obviously we don’t want any armor or nothing like that, but as I mentioned earlier, he’s not too bad. Vortex was okay, but because of the setting of the story, he would just be another guy that wants to save the slums. Unlike Blaster, he’s pretty much straight from there so it’s hard to build on that story. If anything, those characters can make a cameo that tells you about a mission or one of the more outspoken leaders of the Power Core when it comes to the resistance. Still, there is no need to use every character that was created throughout all of the series because some of those characters just weren’t that good. Also, it would be good to have some new concepts in a new game. It should show signs of the old games and series as homage, but some things should be revamped, but new as well.

Well, I had a theory that Blaster was the cartoon's Sonny. Blaster was the first Dragon Warrior to be dubbed, by Billy and Jimmy. He has dark skin, like Sonny's arcade sprite. His Dragon outfit has the same colour scheme, as Sonny's appearance in the American arcade poster.

Of course, given how accurate the cartoon is to the games, this is all likely coincidence.

It’s hard to say. I see some things that are similar, but I see some big differences as well. Their builds are the same and the color scheme somewhat. But they don’t look too much alike. It seems like they took bits and pieces from the game, but redesigned them as well. Like I said, Blaster seems to be one of the few characters that can translate well. At the same time, if he is somewhat similar to Sonny, I can see why. Because of their builds, you could make them somewhat a power character. I guess it all depends on the look you want.

As much as I like belt-scrollers, I would've love to have seen Double Dragon rebooted as a 3D action game in the vein of Devil May Cry, the Xbox Ninja Gaiden games or Yakuza to name a few. The NES version of Double Dragon II in particular is one of the few beat-'em-ups that feel like you're not just playing a game, but experiencing a martial arts film and I don't think there are that many games (even in the beat-'em-up genre) to capture such a feel. That's part of the reason why I'm disappointed at Double Dragon Neon, since it looks like a rehash of the first game and not a very good-looking one at that.

I'm not sure if anyone has seen Ong-Bak, but that movie had some of the most awesome fight scenes ever and I don't think there's any video game like that has recreated its intensity. I've always envisioned a fight against a group of Abobos modeled after the scene where Tony Jaa gets his ass kicked by those pro wrestling bodyguards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bizrduWSCDI

The scenario is not really that important, just as long as they make it dark and serious like the first two games. None of that "space pagoda" stuff from Neon.